Is It Rigged?
Posted on February 13, 2005
I haven’t posted since Tuesday, so I thought I’d give a quick update of how it has been going at the tables. In one word…shitty! The bad beats are coming in from all directions. I flop 2 pair and someone calls me down going runner runner for a bigger two pair. I flop the nut straight and someone hits a 3 outter on the river for a bigger straight. I flop a full house with the hammer and someone spikes an ace on the river with his A7 for a bigger full house. I flop trips and someone calls me down hitting a 2 outter on the river for a full house. These are just a couple of examples. The other day in a span of 10 minutes I got beat on the turn or river 5 times by someone with 5 outs or less.
It’s simply impossible to come out ahead when the other players are pulling cards out of their ass like this. It’s at times like this when it really makes you wonder if online poker is rigged. I know it’s now, but I’d be lying if I didn’t admit the thoughts enter my head once in awhile. I can’t complain about the horrible players I guess, but it would be nice if my monsters would hold up to those drawing dead (2-4 outs) once in awhile. It’s extremely hard to recover from losing a 20 BB pot that you were the clear favorite in. Especially when it happens more than once.
Sorry about the bad beat whining, but I needed to get it out of my system somehow. Screaming at my monitor hasn’t seemed to help at all.
Filed Under Bad Beats, Cash Games, Online Poker
Comments
Trust me, I have had the exact same problem lately, I am hoping that taking a little time off will help. My whining here.
Well, it would seem to be a question of it being “too cheap” to call. I know that I sometimes get on the other side of this problem and call 1 bet (in limit) at the flop when I should fold. Then, when I have hit 1/2 of my runner-runner, I know feel obligated to call again. Stupid? Sure. But now, if there are many others like me, that’s why you’re getting beaten by dumb chasers.
Now, in no-limit I don’t do that. First of all, because when I call the flop, I know that unless I’m in last position I could see a MASSIVE raise that forces me to abandon my call. I also know I could see that same raise/bet on the turn or river — it FORCES me to respect the math.
No-limit doesn’t prevent calling, just DUMB calling.
And don’t get me wrong…I love that people are calling me on all these long shots, because I realize that in the long run, the math will even out and I’ll come out with the best of it. The long run just seems so far away right now though…
I have played thousands of hands of Texas-Hold’Em at Party Poker (ring games, all different limits). If you think for one minute that the games are legitimate you are dead wrong. Party-Poker is rigged so that eventually YOU WILL LOSE ALL OF YOUR MONEY – period.
I am 39 years old and have been playing poker in B&M environments for twenty five years, that’s right since about age 14. I have an Associate of Science degree and I am currently working on a Bachelor’s of Science in Mechanical Engineering on a part time basis at on of our nations leading technical colleges, I have also programmed turnkey computer applications related to mechanical drafting and design. In other words, I didn’t “just fall off the boat” and I just didn’t start playing poker yesterday. I am a consistent B&M winner. I’ve been in plenty of crooked B&M games in my time and I can tell the difference between a legitimate game and a crooked game. Unfortunately, I kept telling myself that Party-Poker “had to be legit, I mean come on why wouldn’t they be. . .” Several thousand dollars later, I wised up.
All of the posts that I have read on this site that claim Party-Poker is a rip-off and the descriptions that they give of how the hands go and how the customer service is terrible, are right on the money. It’s the people who claim that Party-Poker is legitimate that are the crack-pots and not the “conspiracy theorists.” Let me tell you something – Corporations are legally bound to do one thing and one thing only – increase the wealth of the share holders, at any cost. To think that they would not be dishonest is incredibly naïve.
I know what you pro-online-poker people are thinking and what you will say to this post. “Where is your proof, post your hand histories.” It would be pointless to post hand histories when they are nothing but ASCII text files that can be manipulated by anyone at will - the debate lives on. Instead of relying on hand histories why don’t you trust your intuition, your intelligence, and your gut? They should be screaming at you that you are in a crooked game. You know when you get beat by someone who stays in the pot (no matter how much you raise) with absolutely nothing only to catch the single card in the deck that can beat you that something is not right (this happens time and time again). The something that’s not right is this – THE SITE IS RIGGED.
The best thing you can do is to STAY AWAY FROM PARTY-POKER. If you already have an account, close it while you still have some money left. I also have had similar experiences with other on-line gambling sites (not poker) and have come to the same conclusions – THEY ARE RIGGED SO THAT YOU WILL LOSE.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
PS. – I am still waiting for Party-Poker to actually close my account, they don’t seem to want to let me go. If I try to log on, the screen says something to the effect that my account has been “temporarily frozen”. This is after several emails, and phone calls. Meanwhile my sensitive personal information remains in their system even after I have screamed at those idiots at customer service to DELETE MY ACCOUNT – If you’re from PP and you read this – DELETE MY ACCOUNT ALREADY YOU IDIOTS. Same thing goes for Epassporte (another rip-off) they also will not let go of my account. Why would a legitimate company behave in this manner?
[...] Check out this guy’s comment about online poker being rigged. Imagine that [...]
All I can do is sit back and laugh at you Matt…
A wise man once said, “If you can’t spot the fish at the table, it’s probably you.”
WOW! I am sensing a lot of hostility. You may want to consider seeing a therapist. And possibly reading Zen and the Art of Poker.
Also, I know that if I were that consisant of a B&M player, and I knew that “online poker is rigged,” I would stick to B&M games… just my $.02. Fortunately for me, I play at PokerRoom, where everyone knows it’s rigged.
Although I play at party poker alot, and although I dont consider myself a great player, and although I have taken my share of bad beats I will say this. OF COURSE ITS FIXED.
Its a known fact that no random number generator ever created by man is truly random. Im not saying that crazy things dont happen in real life games, they do, but when u lose 7 all ins in a row and get beat by a 2 outer everytime, something is not right.
But really its not surprising. its like people who think the point spread of a game is designed to get action on both sides. Fools believe that. Smart money knows that the point spread is designed to get all the money on the wrong side.
You see Vegas(and all humans in general) is greedy. they dont want a cut(a measly 10%) they want all ur money.
Sure Party poker tells u they are on the level. They have to. but dont be a sucker. they want all ur money. they want u to lose and put more money in. its all about cash flow. Newplayers tend to win at first then cant win at all. sure a skilled player will beat a chump, but when the computer is in elimination mode, hope that ur not the one targeted for elimination.
You guys crack me up.
I don’t care how random a random generator is…that still doesn’t mean the game is fixed. Someone has to win the hand, it just happens not to be you. Get over it. Sure Party Poker wants all our money. I want all your money too. Party can’t beat me in poker though…only other players can beat me. Party doesn’t have anything to gain by making me lose and another player win. They get their rake no matter what. Party wins whether I win or lose…they could care less as long as I keep playing and they keep getting their rake.
Stop with the conspiracy theories please! I’m gonna die laughing over here.
Nick,
Im sure ur a good poker player, probably better than me even, but u dont know anything about the business of gambling. I tried to elude to it earlier, but maybe I didnt do a good enough job of drawing up a comparision, so let me try again.
If u believe that all party poker wants is their rake u are living in a fantasy world. The same thing holds true in sports gambling. All but a small minority of people(those who win) believe the point spread is designed to stimulate action on both sides. This is not the case and anyone who believes it will find themselves out of money. Rather the point spread is designed to get all the money on the wrong side so you lose and vegas keeps everything. Do u think for a minute all those fancy sportsbooks were built with a measly 10 percent? The same thing with online poker. It would not surprise me if the people that write the software recieve a continuous cut of the profit. thus the more profit available the more they make.
remember none of these companies are in the US and they all invlove money and gambling. Only a fool would believe that they are legit.
never in the history of mankind has any gmabling enterprise been legit, accept when forced to by law. If you give someone an opportunity to rip you off they will. the amazing thing with online poker is we dont just give them an opportunity, we defend them and justify them as well.
Your sports betting comparison doesn’t make sense for online poker. If I lose a hand, Party Poker doesn’t get what I lose, the other player does. If I win a hand, Party Poker doesn’t get the pot, I do. Party Poker gains absolutely nothing if they were to rig the games…think about it. They get rake no matter what happens (as long as the pot is big enough). Why would they rig something when no matter what, they get the rake and nothing from the my (or the winning player’s) part of the pot.
Think about it…
And of course the odds and point spreads on games are made to make the bookmakers money. That’s a no brainer. If they weren’t setup to get the suckers to bet then, the bookies wouldn’t make any money. But please do not compare sports betting to poker…it’s not even in the same ballpark or remotely the same situation.
The reason they would fix it is because the more money you lose the more money you deposit again and the more money they make. it simple cash flow. and they want all the money flowing into their pockets. the best place to see how fixed things are is to play in a sit and go. sure u might think thats not fixed, after all I put in my $20.00 and they take $3.00 but when u play in a game the computer goes on elimanation mode to get the game over with as fast as possible. that where most or ur bad beats occur. At some point the computer wont let you win no matter what u do. funny but I went from winning or finishing top 3 60% of the time, to barely able to hold on to 4th.
when I quit playing party poker guess what happened? why they sent me $20.00. I turned that into $250.00, and guess what? I couldnt win a game. They want to induce you to keep depositing money. the more u deposit the more they make.
its absolutely rigged. but I will still play anyway
If you think it’s rigged and yet you still play…that’s the sign of a problem. Only people with problems play a game they think they can’t beat. You might be better off visiting the Gambler’s Anonymous web site.
I didnt say I didnt win. I just said its rigged. I stick to tournies(which I dont believe are rigged) and omaha hi/lo.
If you know how the comp. works, then you can play and win.
In poker someone always has to lose. It’s a pretty simple concept actually. Nobody wins all the time. Not even the pros in a B&M casino…I guess that must be rigged too. I’m never playing poker again.
HA!
You aren’t playing against the computer so knowing how it “works” doesn’t have any influence on whether you win or lose. You need to beat the other players and that’s how you end up winning.
Let me get this right…when you win, it’s not rigged, but when you lose it’s rigged. Now I understand.
When did I say that when I win its not rigged but when I lose its rigged? I never said that.
What I did say is that these sites are all located in some distant land I couldnt even point out on a map. I also said that all these sites invlove money and gambling.
But since you didnt understand that how could you possibly understand my comparision to sports gambling. You cant so let me once again make my point.
You see in sports gambling the sports book(or bookie) supposedly makes their money on the vig. or juice. thats the extra 10% premium on each dollar waged. the theory goes that a point spread is set to stimulate betting on both sides of the event, so that there is an even amount of wagering on both sides with the sports book(or bookie) making a tidy 10% profit with no real effort.
In Poker the house or card room takes a small cut of each pot(the rake). The theory goes that since they make their money on percetnage of the pot, the outcome of the card game, from the houses point of view is meaningless.
So to goes the theory in online poker. The poker site just holds the games and takes their cut. Nice and clean and simple.
What you probably didnt know is that as far as casino poker goes. its not a huge money maker for them. in fact some some casinos have closed down their poker rooms. Just 15 minutes from Foxwoods is another casino, mohegan sun. They used to have a card room but closed it down, due to lack of profit. It turns out its more pofitable for them to have slots and blackjack and all the other table games where the odds are in their favor. Casino never do anything where you get a fair shake. In casino poker they cant manipulate anything to their favor(although they could increase the rake I suppose), with slots and craps and blackjack they can.
In sports gambling the line is used to manipultae idiots(or what I call Joe Public) into betting all the money on the wrong side of the game. this way the sports book or bookie makes a huge profit. thats why people always lose in sports gambling. But the few who make money know this bet accordingly and win on a 70-80% basis. An online casino works in much the same way. there is just not enough profit in a straight game.
The software is desgned to get people in games and then get them out and back in games. thats why in sit and go’s so many bad beats occur. Once the game starts, as far as the poker site is concerened, it just as well could end. So the software quickly eliminates people so that they keep playing and putting more money in play in the system.
Party poker is now advertising during NBA games as well as on other national media outlets. Do you think they are this big because of the rake?
So you can be as snide and sarcastic as you want. I could care less. if we were playing at a table together I might beat you or you might beat me, thats poker, but if we were playing online the outcome would be determined by software code. and thats just how it goes.
So you’re saying that at a table it’s not determined by the dealer? It’s exactly the same thing. The software gives you your cards just like a live dealer does.
Online poker is NOT rigged!
And…so many bad beats occur online because well, you’re playing so many more hands. It’s easy math…play more hands and you’ll get more of each thing to happen. Track your data…the percentages still hold for online poker. I have solid proof in my hand histories. Over the long run my pocket aces hold up as much as they are supposed to and I get beat by bad hands just as much as the numbers say I should.
I’m 99.9% sure online poker is not rigged. I’m only leaving off that extra 0.1% because you can never be totally sure about much.
[...] a notice, throughout this post I’ll be making a lot of sarcastic comments regarding online poker being rigged. This is due to the recent comments I’ve received on the [...]
nick i think you just like to argue.
now i dont know if i think its rigged or not….but
the fact of the matter is, your point of, “why would they care who wins and who loses?! they get there rake anyway!” is actually not 100% valid. If you are a new player, i’m gonna give you bonuses and good cards so you make some money. Yay, new player is happy. they go to bigger games, where the RAKES ARE BIGGER, and they have the new player lose there money to someone else! genius. so your whole theory of they get the same amount of money no matter who wins it isnt true, because if they can induce players to play in games with bigger pots, they get more money.
and actually the programming for holdem doesnt give you the same chances as a deck, but its pretty damn close. PokerStars is probably the most legit site. THey have a 3rd unassociated party check them all the time.
Yes, I do like to argue.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is something I feel very strongly about.
As far as the decks being random…online is much more random in my opinion because it’s done by a computer. When shuffling in real life you need to shuffle at least 7 times to achieve true randomness. I don’t ever recall a dealer shuffling the deck 7 times, has anyone else?
My friend I dont blame you. Online Poker IS RIGGED! How do you think they are making so much money? Online Poker sites have “shills” ie: paid players that occasioanlly go play on tables and have the ablility to see other players’ cards and even what’s coming on flop/turn/river. They can even control these cards, it really isn’t rocket science to do so.
Picture this: I have AK, flop AA2 raimbow and the tight player to my left kept calling my bets no matter how big they were. Turn was a 5 and river was a 3. He had 4-8 offsuit!
All I can think of of my online experience is how often I was set up all the time.
I have AQ, someone else has AK, I have medium/large pocket pair and go all in, someone will call with his Ace-rag offsuit and always catch an Ace.
If I have Ace-High and go against a pocket pair, even deuces, it’s over! He has won it!
Only on online poker will you see 3 Royal Flushes in the same week.
Only on online Poker will Quads beat Quads.
You certainly cannot believe canards like online Poker sites rigging it to cap up a $3 rake. And “oops! Why would they do it for $3? It’s not rigged then” nah-ah! They don’t wanna boost the rake, they want your whole stack! They wanna clean you out!
How about when I had Pocket AA and flop Ah, 6d, 7c and the ************ with Js, 4h called my massive all in only to catch a 8 on the turn and 5 on the river. And when I flopped a straight the same day, the same player that raised preflop folded my bet immediately! And it was a really small bet compared to the pot.
I’m telling you there are “shills” out there just waiting to suck players’ money in.
I have also noticed that you are always set-up (dealt second best cards) after you make a withdrawal and re-deposit. This is what the online poker sites are thiking “How dare this player withdraw his money from us! It’s our!”. So they punish you.
I never got a proper attitude from representatives either when making a withdrawal, and they put me on hold for at least 20 f***ing minutes just to be able to touch my own money!
Well I got that out of my system. But I still believe cards are not random at all. In fact controled by the site quite often.
The comment above is not from the same Nick as the one above that one. This is my first time here.
And to the people that think that the Poker site has nothing to gain making the other player win, think again. That other player IS the site: A shill paid by the site, working for the site from the site’s office, using the site’s own special software to control cards.
Use a different name then! Duh! I changed your name to say Nick2 so that you don’t get confused with my comments.
I would have hated to be the parents of you people when you were younger. It must have been a bitch putting you to sleep at night when you kept seeing monsters under your bed or in your closet.
Ever think of this? Maybe you aren’t good at poker? You can’t win every hand!
As I’ve said before, I play at PokerRoom, and they have this page that shows that their site is not rigged. I am sure someone will give me the old, “you can’t believe everything you read on the Internet” speach, but do some digging, I am sure most online poker sites show these kind of stats.
To Nick: What does that have to do with my parents? I have been playing poker for years and never have I seen such beating from such dumb plays (even when playing for Doritos) that I have seen in 3 months of online Poker. Yes more hands are delt. But who would call half his stack with 4-8 offsuit with AA2 on the board? Why would anyone call all-in (not bet), CALL after a preflop raise with absolutely nothing. Hands that are not one-outters but BOTH turn and river have to be of a specific card in order to lose.
Like when I had 10c, 10s: Flop comes out 9s, 10h, 10d (notice the raimbow). Someone bet, I raised big, shill-player calls. Shill-player had 5s and 7s. Turn: 6s and river 8s. Out of the remainning 43 cards, the 6s and 8s were the ONLY cards that could make him a winner. The odds: (1/43)*(1/42)= about 1/1800
You just know it. When someone bluffs raises you in a tournament with 8-3 offsuit and you reraise all in with AQ suited and he beats you with a pair of 3s on the river, something is not right. Tha kind of sh*t happened to me almost everyday on online poker. And mostly by the same player. I had one big winning day, my first day, that was it. The rest, I won most of my hands quantity-wise, lost it all on river beats like those mentionned above.
And don’t say I don’t kow how to play. I know how to play! It’s not rocket-science.
You want these players making those plays. They are not going to hit their miracle every time. You just don’t remember the hands where you win when you are supposed to. I have plenty of stats and they are legit. Hands win as much as they should.
No I don’t remember because I don’t play rags on a monster flop so I don’t have the chance to catch runner-runner. I once had KK and flop was QT4 and so I called the person all in. He had QT, I caught a K on the river. Yes I remember. I also remember when I had AA, flop KJ9, he had K-J, all in, I call, Turn: 6 River: 6. But I had decent hands.
*These players* are SHILLS. The only time they chase out of a hundred they catch. They also folded quite easily when I had an unexpected monster hand. ie: Pocket 6s, flop 862. Surely they would have two over cards here or a chance to make straight. If they’d call a big raise with 48 offsuit against AA2 flop or like one of my examples, why fold a $6 bet with an 862 flop offsuit? Especially if I had raised preflop, ie: not likely holding an 8.
Stats only need to be off a negligible degree from legitimacy for the sites to make a fortune trough shills. I can win my good hands according to the stats for hours and lose it all in 2-minutes of bad luck. When the boards was T933 and I had A3 and lost because the dude had pocket KK and caught a K on the river I understand because his hand was hard to fold, and I got lucky on the turn, but there is always a limit. Know what I mean…
Nick2,
What I meant was that you never take a look at the other players cards when he goes for his bullshit draws and misses. You take your pot with AA and never think about it again. The times you look at the guys hand is usually only when he beats your monster. Take a look at your oppenents hand every time you win a pot and you’ll be very surprised at what they are calling with.
I’m not going to waste my time arguing this anymore with anyone. It’s obvious that you’re not going to change your mind. It really is a sign of a gambling problem though if you are playing a game that you think is rigged…a game that is out to beat you.
So now I have a gamblin problem. Why are you kissing so much Poker sites ass anyways? Ususally players do fold my AA and you’re right I forget about it. But that one shill player that chased his bullshit and hit immediately folded my monster hand the next hand. Why is that? He must know what trun/river is coming. It is always the same players.
And for your info I have stopped playing rigged poker.
Ya it is all rigged. sucks cause i love to play poker.
After playing PartyPoker & Stars for about 500 hours on the play money tables, I just have to laugh how often bad beats and the same type of set-ups occur. I see the same improbable events occur over and over to where I am convinced it is part of the program code. In a random game the outcomes will approach probability theory as the number of hands played becomes larger, I havn’t kept accurate records but my impression is probability is violated.
Why, on play money tables? (I am still to skeptical to slap down real $). Because the program is sophisticated and they use the same one for real and play money. As mentioned in previous posts the program’s main job is to increase the rake by giving as many players as possible good hands with many chances to win a pot increasing the pot size, stimulating betting and make most every hand exciting as turn and river change the best hand. On real money I would not put it past them to have computer generated “players” that win pots for the house.
2 examples of “coded events” I have noticed on PokerStars: The flop will be 3 cards all the same suit (easy to program and give many players 1 or 2 of the same suit to stimulate betting). The probability of 3 same suit is 12/51 * 11/50 = about 1 in 20. Take a deck of cards shuffle, look thru it for 3 suits in a row and after 10-20 decks you will approach the probability prediction. Now keep a record of how often this happens on poker site, significantly shifted toward greater than 1/20 the only explanation is a devious program. I have not kept accurate records, maybe we could pool together a large number of flop events to check out this one example. My general impression is it happens way to often. I’m usually too busy playing 2 45 player sit&gos at once and cussing the bad beats to keep records.
The other programed event I have noticed is an Ace on the flop, especially on the final table.
Probability theory (I think)
(1- (48/52 * 47/51 * 46/50)) = .22
or 52/3 * 1/4 = once every 4.3 flops.
But seems more like every or every other!
BTW, if anyone knows of a site where play does seem more like the action with real cards, please post the name. I hears Pacific was real for a while but then adopted the the same rigged program.
I’ve played at Full Tilt, UB, Party Poker, Empire Poker, PokerNow, Poker Stars, and MultiPoker. All simulate real action.
If it walks, talks, and looks like a rigged game, get the F out of Dodge. I have been through B school, aced Stats classes, trade for a living. Got up a healthy amount, winning consistently and then wham…weird, weird beat after beat. Kept telling myself that such low probability hits happen to everyone, just ride it out. Don’t believe it…moved over to PokerStars and suddenly I am smart again, a consistent winner. Don’t care whether its true or not…doubt alone is enough for me to never return.
Can you “onilne is rigged” theorists actually hear yourselves?
“OMG LIEK SERIUSLY! SOME n00b SHILLZ GUY WITH NO CLUE CALLED WHILE BEHIND AND RIVER-RIVERED ME PEFRECT! IT’S RIGGED ‘CUZ I ROK AND HE SUKS BUT HE WINS!”
Get over it guys. It isn’t rigged. Poker sites make their money with volume…hence the free cash and all that. They don’t make money if everyone leaves because as soon as they win some pots, the power gets turned off and they drop their bankroll. As for action-geared hands, poker sites at any limit about 1/2 make more money playing 30 extra hands per hour than they do by mechanically capping the rake. VOLUME is the cash cow. As for shills, that’s just plain ridiculous. I know shills and props exist. I have a family member propping for an online site right now. He doesn’t have cheat software, and he doesn’t get any favors. He simply gets paid to KEEP TABLES GOING BECAUSE THIS IS A VOLUME BUSINESS!!!!!
Stop using the rigged excuse to keep from taking a good look at your own game and flaws. People have been beating the Party Poker games for years. They aren’t all employees of Party Poker, Inc.
Thank you zdaddy! Finally someone with common sense!
Hey JPE…
If a sportsbook isn’t going to be content with 10%, how in the hell does a Brick and Mortar casino stay in business offering games with as little as a 1% house edge? How can you possibly say that someone doesn’t know the first thing about the gambling industry, and then make a completely moronic statement like that? Look at it like this…
Estimate 2000 tables going at one time….with an average rake of 1 dollar per table. (I know these are pretty rough estimates, but it’ll serve to make a point. If anyone has better numbers, lemme know) Each table plays an estimated 60 hands per hour, giving us 120,000 hands per hour on the site. Scale that back to 100,000 to disregard tournaments and make sure our estimate is in the low end of the spectrum. That means the site is making 100,000 dollars PER HOUR. If that number drops to 1500 tables, they lose 25,000 dollars PER HOUR.
So, lets see…they can focus their efforts at keeping their tables/hands per hour as high as possible through shills, props, and affiliate rakeback programs, or they can rig the software. Rigging the software will chase away some of the people sitting at those tables ’cause obviously not all of us would be dumb enough to fall for it (You obviously aren’t), violate numerous laws causing the likelihood of Congressional pressure on escrow and online payment method companies further reducing their volume, and even put the site at risk for shut down and law suits, thereby losing 100,000 dollars per hour. They would do all this so some fake prop-bot who works for Party Poker can bust your sorry ass at the $25 NL table by going runner-runner?
The “almost-negligible” rake that you say no real gambling business would be content with making can approach 2 million dolalrs PER DAY. This is for an industry that requires no goods to produce their product, and no costs of shipping their product. For a completely service based industry, 2 million a day in gross revenue is not something to be taken lightly. At least some of the other posters came up with theories of action generated hands and such to cap the rake…you just spouted some nonsense about greed and called it a day.
Lastly, “Never in the history of Mankind has a gambling operation been legit.” Lets have a source or two on that.
Well finally some people agreeing with me. No not the person above me. Sure they can make 2 millions dollars a day, but what’s wrong with 10 million a day?
You say each table’s rake is $60 an hour. But what if they hire a shill player on a table to clean someone out for $300 in just one shot? Wouldn’t they do it? What have they got to lose? Poker site all over tells us that “good players” accept bad beats like a sport. So chances are the victime won’t notice. Plus it makes other players want to play more hoping they can win the same way.
Check this out at the $4/8 NL (5 players):
I have pocket KK on the button.
Guy to my right limps in, I raise it to $24.
Small blind folds, Big blind calls, another folds and the player (to my right) calls.
Flop comes out A K 5 raimbow. Perfect. Big blind checks, guy to my right bets $16, I call (slow play) and Big Blind calls as well.
At this point I am hoping someone has an Ace.
Turn comes out an 8.
Guy to my right bets $24, I raise it to $70 (hoping he wouldn’t fold his Ace). Big blind calls my raise and player to my right reraises all in for just over $200… uh oh. Does he have AA? Could be two pair. I can’t fold my set of Kings. So I call. BB calls as well.
River: 6. I put the rest of my chips in for an additional $250 and BB calls. The pot is $1200 something dollars if I can remember.
BB reveals 4-7 offsuit! And takes the pot! I lose my set of Kings. And the guy to my right sights saying “What a lucky f*ck! Oh well my two pair would’ve lost anyways”.
I announced to the table that that player from ISTANBUL (the BB) was a shill/bot employed by the company and that I was never coming to that RIGGED site again! Let’s re-examine shall we:
Hands in flop: 47 ….. KK ….. xx
Flop: A - K - 5 and $16 bet all around.
Turn: 8, a $24 bet, raise to $70 and reraise to over $200
River: 6
What was the player (shill) doing in a preflop-raised AK5 flop with a $16 bet with 4-7 offsuit? And why would he call a $200 reraise on turn drawing only to a 6? And no he was not a maniac. He folded many hands before, even got bluffed a couple of times.
If you think online Poker is as random as in real life you’re an retard.
a* retard^^ Sry abou the typo
I told you these sites are rigged. Although the above story is even more insideous than I ever imagined.
What I dont undertand is why do you people assume the games are fair and continue to make excuses for these sites.
I said in an earlier post that no gambling operation has ever been legit and I stand by it. The only time they are legit is when they are forced to be by the government.
I also said that who ever makes the software probably is getting a cut. well I was wrong about that. It turns out that at party poker THEY MAKE THE SOFTWARE!!!
so lets review; they make the software, base their company in some far off land far away from US regulators and they tell you how legit they are. And blind sheep like zdaddy and nick say they make millions just from the rake alone, WRONG!!!! people that run gambling operation never want just their cut they want it all. PERIOD!!!!
and FYI the only money I play with on any of these sites is the money I make from playing and winning freerolls. I would never but a penny into these sites
Nick2,
Go away! That’s what you call a bad beat. Happens all the time in poker. Get used to it. You want those people calling you because they won’t hit their runner runner everytime and you’ll make money off of them.
Haven’t you got something better to do than chase conspiracy theories?
What part don’t you understand Nick? They “chase” their runner-runner because they are able to control the cards and know what cards will come up. How can you possibly believe that computer generated cards are random. The only other explanation for those “bad beats” is that the dude taking the pots does not like money. Is that more likely than taking pots for the house?
Here’s how I will prove my point on why poker sites are not happy with their cut of millions of dollars:
Sportsbooks receive millions of dollars of action everyday right? And they have a juice of about 110 to 100 (or 10%) right? That’s 5% off every wager. They must be making millions in vig alone yet they STILL WANT YOUR ENTIRE BANKROLL. Once you’ve made your deposit, the money is theirs, WIN OR LOSE!
They will give you the hardest time of your life making a withdrawal. They will put withdrawal penalties on you, charge you hefty fees just to be able to touch your own money. On top, they will make you sign dozens of documents, fax them identication pieces and scan pictures and go through a long horror process just to be eligible to make a withdrawal. Noe for deposits. Oh no, for deposits they’ll take your money right away.
They will repeat the horror process every 6 months or $5000 or transaction.
So they don’t just want their cut/juice/rig, they want IT ALL! You entire bankroll! Not just PartyPoker.
The only way to make money with them is to be susscessful in sports betting and give in your time and energy through the horror process.
With that “proof” you should go to the FBI.
Well first of all they are all located overseas, ie: OUTSIDE of the United States. So the FBI couldn’t to much.
And second, how many times have you seen the government actually do anything about a certain casino in Vegas breaking the law? They are in the same side. Their piece of the pie is huge.
The only liability any casino/sportsbook might have is the loss of customers, loss of business and credibility. A casino/spotrsbook can get away with not paying its winning customers. But they don’t do it because they will lose the customer and more as word will spread. But no punishment whatsoever.
The FBI will only tell you not to play at these online Poker rooms. They want you to play in the U.S. where they can tax the casinos you play at. They’re not gonna spend money shutting down the thousands of rigged online Pokerrooms.
Especially with naive suckers like you on their side.
Are you actually denying that there are long term winners who exist, playing online poker, that are not employees of a corporation or some insidious computer hacker? Or are you insinuating that they allow some people to win so that they’ll help perpetuate the myth that online poker is legit? I know, maybe online poker is run by The Masons, who use the money they make off of the 200 NL tables at Party Poker to topple governments and assassinate world leaders to advance their own agenda?
Again, you post a bunch of hypothetical nonsense about all this illegal money they could be making, followed by a single hand history where you got sucked out on. Is it a massive suckout? Yes. Does it do ANYTHING to prove that online poker is rigged? Not in the least.
A final note…you’re playing NL 200 with only money “you’ve won playing freerolls” since you “never put money into any of these sites”. It must be a tough game to crack, filled with numerous cheaters and shill/bots in order for you to build a bankroll able to handle NL 200 from freeroll winnings. Even a “retard” can see you’re completely full of crap.
oops, the guy who called me a retard didn’t make the statement about playing with only freeroll money….I guess he thinks it’s ok to deposit enough money to play 4/8 NL while thinking that it’s rigged. Heh, and I’m the “retard”…
Im thr free roll guy. I dont believe that the sites use bots or shills(although I wouldnt be shocked if they did) I do believe that the sites are rigged however.
What the hell are you talking about zdaddy300? Topple the government? Assasinate leaders? Never mind all the fancy sarcasm.
I wasn’t referring to one hand. I was referring to the hundreds of hands in which people made such silly moves and took so many huge pot that I’m convince online Poker is rigged. Would you like a list? If people can build chess programs able to beat the greatest chess players in the world, analysing billions of positions per second, Poker is nothing compared to that.
They can even make a “suckers list” of less than professional players than would come back no matter what, but would withdrawal winnings quite often. Then they would program in a way to “set-up” that sucker to always lose. eg: give him AA vs. KK and K would hit, give him AQ vs someone’s AK, etc. I used to win like that. Assuming they are suckering those opponents of mine. And I loved these opponents. But then it was my turn to be the victim, right after my big cash-out.
Just compare Poker to Chess and the electronic technology to manipulate it. It’s really not hard. Only on online Poker would someone call half of his stack with 4-7 offsuit on an A-K-5 raimbow flop. Or 4-8 offsuit on an A-A-2 no-flush-draw-flop. There are only three logical explanation to that:
1. He is a shill/bot.
2. He thinks because it’s online Poker, runner-runner will be coming as the cards are not random and something spectacular is programmed to happen every once in a while. Very innocent on his part yhough.
Or 3. He hates money.
Now you be the judge.
Poker/Chess is apples to oranges, first of all. Chess is a game of complete information…each contestant knows exactly what the current situation is, and where every piece is laying. Poker is a game of imperfect information. I don’t know what the other guy has, and I don’t know what the next cards will bring. I can think of worse comparisons to make your point, but not many.
Again, you “prove” online poker is rigged by stating what an online poker site “could” do in theory, and state a few bad beats where reckless calls cost on the part of some unkown player cost you money. Give us some hand histories! Give us some poker tracker stats where you’ve lost 89% of your AA pocket cards heads up over 1500 trials. Give us something other than the products of your imagination, ’cause they just don’t hold up.
Lastly, I’ve seen some mindblowingly stupid play in B&M casino tables as well. I saw a lady call a 742 dollar all-in with J-9 on an unraised pre-flop pot of 40 dollars and a board of A 10 2 rainbow because, and I quote “I thought sure he was bluffing.” Needless to say, Q on the turn, K on the river. She couldn’t even beat a lot of bluffs…needless to say, the schmuck with AA was ticked. Bad beat stories happen in live play too, and they don’t prove anything.
zdaddt300,
No I don’t have any proof that would stand in court. And I don’t keep track of thousands of hands. All I know is that the same players that folded the minimum bet against my set of Aces after raising preflop stayed in hands and even called all in when their only hope was runner-runner. Those are not stupid players.
Not 89% but 100% of my games after my cashout had a negative impact. Like whenever I had a monster, not one player would call, if anyone would call, he would hit his runner-runner.
In tournaments:
Scenario 1:
Me: AA
Him: AQ
Flop: 864
Turn: Q
River: Q
Could also be something like: Flop: A-K-10, Turn: x River: J or a flush using four cards on the board for the other player.
Scenario 2 (the all-in set ups):
a)
Me: QQ
Him: KK
GAME OVER
Similariy, Scenario 2:
b)
Me: AK
Him: 22
GAME OVER (A & K repulsive)
Scenario 2:
c)
Me: JJ
Him: 10-10
10 hits.
Scenario 3:
Me: JJ, raise reflop, 3 players in.
Flop: J 4 7 raimbow
One player bets minimum, everyone folds, I call.
Turn: x He checks, I bet, he folds immediately.
Scenario 4:
As I mentionned in many posts above, the runner-runner dumb catches. This is by far the most convincing scenario that online Poker is rigged.
Scenario 5:
Me: KQ-spades, limp in.
Player 1: Raise 3x Big Blind
Player 2: Call
Player 3: Call
Me: Call
Player 4: Reraise to 5x BB
Everyone calls.
Flop: As 8s 5d
Player 1: Bets big
Call all around.
Turn: 9s
Player 1 bets again, calls around and player 5 raises, everyone folds but player 1, me and player 5. Lots of action all around.
River: 5
And well you can guess the rest. Player 5 had A5.
This happened a lot with real money Hold ‘em as well (as opposed to tournament play).
Although this cound happeen very commonly in real life, 100% of my hands fell in one of the scenarios above following my cash-out. So gicen this benefit, I have 80% evidence.
In summary:
1. Have lock, somehow lost to the only possible combination.
2. The “set up”. Delt KK againt AA, 10-10 against JJ, etc.
3. I have monster and everyone folds “before even looking at their cards”.
4. Those dumb runner-runners (the actual shills)
5. And the river beats. You may count this one as the ONLY scenario that could happen in real life just as commonly without being rigged.
The others happen way more frequently than in real life or what the numbers would suggest.
Nick2,
Why are you even on the Internet? Don’t you know the government is tracking your every typed word? They are recording every word you speak on the phone too. Your car probably has an undetectable GPS somewhere so they can track everywhere you drive.
5 hands where you lost does absolutely nothing to show that online poker is rigged. Nothing! The reason you can’t post hand historys where the guy didn’t catch runner is because he folds on the turn or river. Most people will stay in when they catch one card and then when they catch a second one of course they are going to stay in and beat you.
Learn how to fold…
For your reading pleasure here is a hand I played in a casino…
I raise pre-flop with AK and get a few callers. The flop is rags (something like 853), so I bet out and I get one caller. The turn is an Ace, so I bet again and get called. The river is a 2 and I get check-raised. What do you think he had? T4o. Casino poker must be rigged right? This guy should not have called me pre-flop, flop, or turn. But…I’m glad he did, because I’ll make money off of him the very large majority of the time when he keeps calling with that trash.
You can keep posting bad beat hands all you want. I have statistics on thousands upon thousands of hands and my win percentages are pretty damn close to what the odds say they should be. Until you can come up with some real data that you only win with AA 10% of the time over 10,000 hands, you have no basis for any of your arguments. And you know what else? You’ll never get that data to put up a valid argument.
Online poker is NOT rigged!
I didn’t say it was 5 hands, I said it was 5 types of hands. And don’t worry about 10%, 100% of my hands fell into that category. I am not the only one who had that horror experience online after a cashout. Just search it out on Google.
Every hand, and I mean EVERY hand I went all in with a hand like TT/JJ/QQ etc against AK/AQ, etc, he always hit. My AK against his A9, 9 will hit. Even if I have AKs, well hey that’s not a hand, he will call my all in with 58s and beat me with a pair of fives on the river.
You don’t have to believe what I say. Just Google the subject and let me know what you find. Keywords: “online poker rigged”.
P.S.: That government thing is BS. Even if we were tracked, we still live in a country of free speech.
As I’ve said before…I’d like to see your statistics to show this “100%” and “every hand” bullshit. Take your free speech somewhere else because I’ve read enough of your comedy.
I think I have provided enough hands to prove my point. I already told you I don’t have a record of a thousand hands, nobody does. That is why it’s so easy for them to rig it.
Tell me, what site do you work for?
Showing 5-10 hands does not prove online poker is rigged, not even close. I could lose 5 hands in a row with AA, but that doesn’t prove online poker is rigged. I once had a streak of winning over 20 times in a row with AA, but that does not prove online poker is rigged either. In order to show anything you need thousands upon thousands of hands.
Nobody has a record of a thousand hands? Think again! I know a lot of people (at least 10) who each have over 10,000 hands on record and I’m one of those people.
I don’t work for a poker site, but I do run two poker sites (this one and Poker Chip Tricks).
It’s the stupidity and yet psychicness of the shills that prove my point, not the fact that I lost hands. I can take a loss. But as I said, when you chase the ONLY two runner-runners in the deck on a 60xBB reraise but fold overcards immediately after a minimum bet, there is something wrong.
He raised preflop, I called with pockets 6s. Flop was something like 10-6-4 and he immediately folded my $8 bet. What could he possibly have that’s so bad for raisig preflop? AK? KQ?… 72? Even that would have the runner-runner option available.
You say you’d want these “suckers” to chase so that you’d make a profit in the lng run but they don’t. Only when they know what’s coming.
Nick and his daddy, you actually believe that a computer picks “random” cards out of a hat.Everythings is on the up and up.Every online gaming site is in business for one reason only,to separate you from your money.Of course they’re not legit.Who are you gonna report it to?It is illegal for a U.S. citizen to gamble online with a offshore casio.That would be like going to the police to tell them I got shorted on my dime bag.I have played with “play money” on sites and ended up a millionaire with play money only to play for “real money”and get cleaned out in record time.I quit giving these people my money long ago.Yes they make money on every raked hand,but what makes you think the people you are playing against are even people?Yes they are making plenty of money off raked hands but that’s not enough for these greedy assholes who operate these sites.They know that there are tens of thousands of gaming sites with hundreds more popping up every week.From my experience,they are all generious at first.But no matter how good or how lucky you think you are,you will eventually lose.But to think it’s all random is naive.How many people just make one deposit,lose,then never play again?I would say none.It’s fun.It’s competitive.It’s entertaining.But anybody who plays for anything other than play money is a fool.
Very well said “legit?”. I mean it’s entertainning to see a Royal Flush. That must explain the three Royal Flushes that I witnessed in the same week.
And how about that player that raises/goes All-In in just about every hand? He is a lose-aggressive maniac pushing you around. But wait, we are delt Pocket Cowboys, now it’s our chance to make him pay! He raises big, with all your energy and will to venge, you reraise him All-In, he thinks for a minute, you think you have him cornered no matter what. After a long thought, he calls and flips over his pocket AA.
But when he does his usual All-In with J-7 offsuit and you call with pocket QQ (laughing), he will pull a monkey out of his ass: hit 2 pair, straight or even a flush using four cards on the board. It just happens. More often than in real life that’s for sure.
That’s quite obvious that it happens more online…you play many more hands per hour online than you do in a live game.
I understand that Nick but the kind of stupidity ONLY exists online and the same kind of stupidity can get you murdered at Casinos/house games.
Not even at my $0 - $0 prize money home family game would anyone call one bet with 48 offsuit with a preflop raised AA2 flop. And the first player was out so there wasn’t even a risk of becoming the beer-bitch for the night!
Hey, how about the time when I had TT, he had 99. Flop comes out T9x. Turn: 9, River: T.
I was happy I won but WOW! The poor sucker must’ve just made a cashout. That was early in the days. I am sure he is convinced that IT IS RIGGED.
Then don’t play!
I don’t. But I have to warn others.
Nick2… u are the man…. Nick do us all a favour and SHUT THE FUCK UP! Online poker is rigged.. they do want it all. All these counter-arguments seem less than supplementary Nick. I play ALOT of online poker and about 3 months ago I decided I was hooked so I’d have to test my luck online.
So far I am up around $700 simply because I make an extremly large amount of money by joining a site for the 1st time. *I’ve joined about 5 instead of 1 because of my belief it is rigged. 1st I joined partypoker and made 50$ into $850 in the period of 4 hours. Obviously I was ecstatic so I cashed out $350US.
Y DIDNT I CASH IT ALL OUT? because im a retard.
My strategy online is to place the minimum into a table *it goes against all my poker beliefs* but it allows me to go all in very easily and if I believe I am the favourite. About 90% of the time I was the favourite where the other player would have to hit his card in order to win and he hit it about 70% of the time.
POKERSTARS, PARTYPOKER, ROYALVEGAS, POKERROOM *DO NOT PLAY POKERROOM UNLESS U WANNA LOSE FASTER THAN ANY OTHER
I won 400$US yesterday on Royalvegas cashed it all out except 100US and lost about 90% of hands I was the favourite.
Here is the last hand I will ever play online.
k8 heads up… i raise 10$ *im very aggressive *** THIS WAS HEADS UP
J 8 7 —> middle pair heads up is more powerful than u think
bet 10$… he calls…. turn card is a 4
im all in… HE CALLS
river card is a Queen
he has Q 4. 2 pair.
This didn’t happen twice or 3 times… same shit over and over. People say ride the bad beats. I’d rather prevent them because there is a difference between a bad beat that doesnt make sense and a bad beat where he was chasing something and hits something else.
I’m taking my money and running. I have no hard proof but I know when im getting screwed.
I’m closing comments on this post. If you losing players want to whine about losing, go do is somewhere else.
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